I just wanted to say this.

There is a modded orion called the PPZ570.3 Vicious Orion going around (lvl. 61 sell value 999999 2.4x zoom, 1019 damg, 2.4 rof etc.)

Funny thing is My (origional) PPZ470.3 Vicious Orion is not a mod and beats the modded version! (only with zoom though but it makes it look way better!)

So wich guns (legit) comes close to the modded versions?

Tell me what you have.

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(clean start) —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXKuragari666Xx (talk • contribs)

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Lvl 61 PPZ570.3 Liquid Orion 932/96.2/2.7/16/2.7x/x4 - closest legit I know of. -- MeMadeIt 18:53, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Lvl 61 PPZ470.3 Vicious Orion of 1019/96.2/2.4/16/2.7x/x4 sacrificing rof for power is also legit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXKuragari666Xx (talk • contribs)

No, most likely mod'ed. 1 - it's a 470, not a 570. No Lvl 61 will have 470. 2 - As Nagamarky posted, according to the Prefix Priorities that are in the code, Liquid is higher than Vicious and high RoFs would cause Liquid to spawn over Vicious. -- MeMadeIt 19:38, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

But as Nagamarky didn't know that the Vicious preflix can go up to 2.4 rof and liquid over that meaning 2.5 and higher so 1.4 to 2.4 is coverd by vicious —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXKuragari666Xx (talk • contribs)

On what grounds do you claim that Vicious goes to 2.4? "I have seen one" is not valid, I'm afraid, I can make one that satisfies that but it'd still be a mod/construct. I can tell you conclusively that no Vicious with f/r >2.0 will be generated: Liquid spawns with a statistical fire rate of <0.5, which is the reciprocal of the itemcard fire rate, i.e. <0.5 per-shot time. So anything beyond f/r 2.0 will be a Liquid sniper. Even if the gun has the fastest reload speed in the game and demands to have a Vicious prefix, Liquid will overwrite it because of prefix priority. On top of that, the Liquid prefix itself has a -20% fire rate modifier, so it has to be less than f/r 2.0 on the itemcard, at least down to 1.6. I've said my due, your turn. --Nagamarky 01:59, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

That might be so on your normal 2-->2.7 rof snipers but the itemcard commands of a Orion varies to those of green to purple rarity script weapons. Why? you ask? The answer is obvious: A orion can only spawn with eighter liquid or vicious due to it's specific orange script programming. But the requirements to achive the vicious/liquid preflix's are different compared to other weapons... the vicious can go up to a max of 2.4 rof in return for reload speed demands liquid however can go form 2.0 to 2.7 or more in return for other demands. but if you say that every sniper with above 2.0 should be liquid then why do i have a steel thunder and a Iron thunder with both 3.4 rof? —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXKuragari666Xx (talk • contribs)

"A orion can only spawn with eighter liquid or vicious ..." Not true. "Fearsome" and "Hard" oranges have been found. Talk:S&S_Orion-- MeMadeIt 18:35, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oops then i forgot to mention that Fearsome and hard are only avadible to LB's and not to PPZ's —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXKuragari666Xx (talk • contribs)

I do not use the orion much, but now that think on the ones I have most of the Orions do seem to be either "Vicious" or "Liquid" prefixes, and I have noticed that the vicous ones I find personally have all been stronger and around 1.4 rof, whereas the liquids have been around 2.4 rof yet slightly weaker. This is just an observation though, as I have not yet examined the Orions I have in WillowTree or any other program. I imagine some of this debate over prefixes would also apply to the 1019 Penetrators that also occasionally appear, since the ones in question are all "Vicious" whereas the parts seem to suggest the the prefix should be "Liquid," which does seem to be the most common prefix on Penetrators. Skeve613 18:31, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

Vicious go's up to 2.4 and no matter what willowtree or HxD has to say bout it, useing these programs will always differ from the game becouse they are 2 completely different programs so willowtree will always differ from borderlands and it seems borderlands can make viciouses to 2.4 rof and maybe more who knows what that wicked game can pull off i've seen double violaters and thanathos's with no scope but with 3.2x zoom ability you name it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by XXKuragari666Xx (talk • contribs)

"HxD"? HxD is just a Hex Editor that just reads what's there. What do you think it does? Just because you don't understand what these apps are or do doesn't make them 'wrong'. -- MeMadeIt 05:40, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

The main thing about an issue such as this is seeing if the title matches or doesn't match what the parts should cause it to be. No matter which opinion one prefers, I think someone should try putting up some conclusions with their basis in the gun's parts and established indexes of the effects of each component attached. Skeve613 21:23, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

@Kura: Why, you ask? Because some stats are factored into the calculation, and some not until generating the itemcard display. Steel and other material_3 prefixes will override Liquid in prefix priority, but Iron will not. Also, "with no scope but with 3.2x zoom ability" is complete and utter rubbish; if you want to come up with a counter-example, at least make it relevant and believable. Post your itemcards or this conversation will go nowhere. --Nagamarky 03:56, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and one more thing. Vicious is LB-only, which is why you see Liquids only on PPZ. --Nagamarky 04:04, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Oh it seems you are mistaken becouse vicious is PPZ to maybe you've been digging in willowtree to much and can't tell the realdeal form some random guys program that doesn't even come near what the programming of borderlands comes to. Besides it's beautifull to see that you don't even know that games have glitches did it ever cross your pathetic mind that everything the human creates has bugs varieating from big to small meaning in games these occur aswell... have you never seen a thanathos with says it's got 3.2x zoom but doesn't have any?? please come online and i'll show your willowtreeignorant eyes No signature found... 09:01, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

If it makes any difference, I'm talking about an otherwise-perfect Orion, i.e. everything else is build 5. In which case, the body is the determining factor. I don't need to go anywhere to be shown anything just because you say I must - the burden of proof is on you to show us the gun. --Nagamarky 09:10, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Turst me this orion is not a mod (the PPZ570.3 is) but this one isn't but hey don't worry that "burden of proof" i do not care bout cuz i know what i found as for the thanathos don't worry it'll be there to but i wont be online till next week friday becouse i'm currently on vacation No signature found... 09:22, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

My point is that you may "know what you found", but we don't. As far as we know, though, it's a construct. I'm not going anywhere online - none of us are - just because you say so. Put that item card here with your digital compact camera if you have to, because this thread is pointless otherwise. --Nagamarky 09:28, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Dude think straight for 1 moment didn't you see: "I'm on vacation" so you can't be expecting the "item card" till friday so why wanting it here when you can see it for yourself?? No signature found... 09:32, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I will wait for Friday then. Enjoy your vacation. --Nagamarky 09:37, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'll do No signature found... 09:48, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

While your at it check: http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:S%26S_Orion scroll thourgh the list untill you see the PPZ vicous orion with 2.4 ROF well mmmmmmmmmmm that gun seems legit enough now does it? :D No signature found... 09:59, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed the Liquid spawns ontop of Orions with 2.7 rof and PPZ but there is a low (very low but possible) chance of a PPZ vicious orion with 2.4 rof and i found that of crawmerax the 5th time i ever killed him No signature found... 10:09, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Then I would start questioning the legitimacy of that as well. (The rest of the list shows PPZ Liquids and LB Vicious, anyhow.) --Nagamarky 10:02, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

True i know but if it was a mod it would have been taken off like 5 months ago No signature found... 10:09, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense! Anyone can post data into those charts and just because it hasn't been corrected doesn't mean you can point to it as "proof"! -- MeMadeIt 19:37, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

BTW XXKuragari666Xx - stop deleting my posts. Unless you want others to start deleting yours. -- MeMadeIt 19:37, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not del'n any posts and besides i've seen tons of modded guns listed being removed from there No signature found... 19:41, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

That's not what the History page shows! It's also interesting to read your original posts before you changed those too. Quite an attitude for someone trying to convince others. -- MeMadeIt 19:48, May 2, 2010 (UTC)

As I am reading, it looks like Nagamarky isnt entirely sure that its a construct or not and xXKuragari666Xx cant come up with a fully valid decision on the gun. Nagamarky, if you contact me, I have the Orion that Kuragari has. I can give you a copy of it for you to verify if its a legit gun or not. Would this be valid for you to run a test to find out? GT: IncubusKid721 14:37, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I play on PC, not on a console. Looking at the itemcard, actual weapon, or even the parts in WillowTree isn't going to help because I know what parts are in it - a body5 with Vicious prefix. And I am certain that Vicious caps at f/r 1.4 --Nagamarky 14:40, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Alright. I wasnt informed of that detail and I am going to look up if there is any differences in the gameplay of guns between the PC and Xbox Live before jumping to any conclusions. I thought I read from posts above that you werent fully certain when you said that "as far as we know, its a construct" I am not saying that your analysis or what your stating is wrong but so far you look uncertain. If I knew how to get the itemcards up, I would show it for you but I dont. I hope we can get this straightened out so we can figure out if its a construct or not. GT: IncubusKid721 14:54, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Under Construction

Let's build us a few guns, shall we?

WeaponType_sniper_rifle_semiauto, firing interval is 0.7 (it states "fire rate"), reload speed is 3.5

gd_weap_sniper_rifle_semiauto.mag.mag2 = no modifiers, it's the basic semiauto mag

gd_weap_sniper_rifle_semiauto.mag.mag5 = "fire rate" -0.21, reload speed -0.5

body2, "f/r" +0.2

body5, "f/r" -0.5

For Vicious to spawn, WeaponReloadSpeed <= 3.0

For Liquid to spawn, WeaponFireRate < 0.5 (this is also firing interval; all game-editor "Fire Rates" are actually firing intervals; the item card just reciprocals the number)

Then,

standard semiauto = semiauto, mag5, body5.

firing interval = 0.7 / (1+0.21+0.5) = 0.7 / 1.71 = 0.409 < 0.5 with mag5. With mag2, it would be 0.4667 < 0.5 so it still works.

If the gun has enough tech to be, say, a Fulgurating Wrath with x4 elemental, then Liquid gets overridden and never spawns. The gun ends up with a fire rate of 1/0.409 = 2.445 which rounds to 2.4 (which is why 2.4 is such a common fire rate for semiautos)

elemental x3/x4 > material_3 > Liquid > Vicious, so whatever overwrites Liquid overwrites Vicious anyway

If the gun is a normal semiauto, or if the legendary accessory takes lower priority, e.g. Pearl Aries, Cobalt Tsunami (which is why all Orions aren't Fulgurating), then Liquid kicks in.

The Liquid prefix itself has a modifier of -0.2, hence firing interval = 0.7 / 1.91 = 0.3665 < 0.5, and fire rate = 1/0.3665 = 2.7285 which rounds to 2.7 (which is also why 2.7 is common)

since mag5 has r/s modifier, reload speed = 3.5 / (1+0.5) = 3.5 / 1.5 = 2.333 < 3.0 hence Vicious is valid for mag5 guns. But since Liquid is also valid, and Liquid overrides Vicious in terms of prefix priority, Liquid spawns.

reloader semiauto = semiauto, mag5, body2

firing interval = 0.7 / (1+0.21-0.2) = 0.7 / 1.01 = 0.693 > 0.5 so Liquid is out, even with the mag5 bonus - if it was mag2, it would be worse.

Just to check, fire rate = 1/0.693 = 1.442 which rounds to 1.4 (which is why Vicious caps at 1.4)

Math logic - since it's supposed to improve fire rate, the modifiers attached to the parts are negative, so that they reduce firing interval (which is why 0.7 is divided by the percentage)

Okay, this is very messy, but I hope it's legible. If it makes any difference, this is for Orions since the title has no modifier. --Nagamarky 15:24, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

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Alright then. this made your explaination much more clear and understandible. Im not really sure about the fire intervals but besides that, everything seems clearer to me about your arguments. I know it doesnt say much but I know that I found this gun on my own but we will be able to be fully sure when Kuragari can post the itemcard for you to look at. It might be a glitch in the game that caused the gun which would be the first time some item was glitched in the game. We will wait and see but thank you for typing this out to read and I hope that we can get this gun cleared up to see if its really legit or a construct/mod. GT: IncubusKid721 15:36, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what else you need to clear this up, but I shall leave you both to your methods. (Addendum: body2mag2 Orions are the only thing that can prevent Liquid or Vicious. And since it's body2, that's also why Hard and Fearsome Orions are all LB (the body2 model). body2mag2 = Hard/Fearsome/some other shit prefix ; body2mag5 = Vicious ; body5 both mags = Liquid.) --Nagamarky 15:49, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

Oh woops. That what my bad. I understand about it now and how it could be modded by what your saying with the firing interval by what parts are made on the gun. Sorry about that. Now I understand what you mean and it is all clear to me now. GT: IncubusKid721 15:51, May 3, 2010 (UTC)

I'll get you that itemcard a.s.a.p. but i can asure you it ain't a mod becouse crawmecrap gave it to me on a very profitable day and besides if it were a construct wouldn't nearly everyone have it by now? Well they don't i haven't traded that thing to no-one exept incubus and bjorn so practicaly only 3 people in the world have this thing and i trust incubus and bjorn not trad'n it without my premission anywayz i'll be back on this friday so stay tuned No signature found... 08:26, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

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Here, I've constructed the two guns.

There is a modded orion called the PPZ570.3 Vicious Orion going around

(lvl. 61 sell value 999999 2.4x zoom, 1019 damg, 2.4 rof etc.)

Funny thing is My (origional) PPZ470.3 Vicious Orion is not a mod and beats the modded version!

(only with zoom though but it makes it look way better!)

Lvl 61 PPZ470.3 Vicious Orion of 1019/96.2/2.4/16/2.7x/x4 sacrificing rof for power is also legit.

Save yourself the trouble of itemcarding, I repeat myself by saying that I don't need to look at them to know that they are constructs. So now I guess 4 "people in the world have this thing". I am only pursuing this conversation for as long as I have because it makes a good case study. And I finally got down to calculating the Orion stats. --Nagamarky 15:15, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

More than four people have this thing, let me tell everyone here. I have met at least four other people besides the original person who gave both to me that had the same thing, and while not as common as some other common constructs, it is hardly a rarity. In the meantime, I have continued to use the more believable 932 damage Liquid Orion I have had from before I got one of these things. Skeve613 15:37, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, 932 Liquid and 961 Vicious are the highest. Nice find. --Nagamarky 15:41, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I have those but however that orion is still a find by me. i have to admit when i found it my entire game just F*cked cuz as soon as craw bit the floor my game like froze so i wanted to.. you know pull out the disk but then it started runn'n again and like all the guns were just stuck in the air (wow) and like that orion was the only legendary one reachable.

So eighter the game just heavily glitched or its a normal legit found but in both ways i love that damn thing. anywayz nagamarky thx for you explain bout the willowtree part of this all and if i ever get a gun that brings me in doubt i know where to find ya No signature found... 18:52, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

"but however that orion is still a find by me (...) So eighter the game just heavily glitched or its a normal legit found" or you're still blatantly denying that you're wrong despite the mountain of evidence against you. Nagamarky 18:56, May 6, 2012 (UTC)