Forums: Index > Watercooler > Patch 1.3.0: Invalid Weapons (+ any news on the PC Patch/DLC yet?)

The Wikia page for info on the patch is here in case anyone was looking for it. Patch 1.3.0

The Gearbox page for Borderlands (still registering Patch 1.2.1.. it's 8.30 in the morning in the UK: am I just being impatient?): Gearbox:Borderlands

I was wondering how the game determines what constitutes an 'invalid' weapon/item. I can't see how it could trawl through its 87 bazillion combinations in a timely fashion every time it loads a game (it would have to do so for each weapon in the save file I believe) to check whether the combined parts of each item are valid. I'd guess it would be the case that it can only check manufacturer/item type parts, i.e. as long as your modded guns only have parts that pertain to the relevant manufacturer and weapon type the game wouldn't be able to come to the conclusion that it was modified and thus remove it.

Admittedly that would still significantly narrow the scope for modding and would probably mean that 99+% of modded items are accounted for. I'd like to see gearbox somehow support this kind of modding though: Forum:Would This Ever Work? as long as it fell within the manufacturer (from a pure logic PoV it wouldn't have to but it would make a lot of sense)/item type restrictions.

RE: PC Patch and DLC - Come on Gearbox chappies.. just because it's half past midnight Pacific time (wonder where Gearbox are based).. and just because I won't even be able to download anything for 9 hours or so, pull your collective digit out. Anyone heard any progress on the new stuff? IMonkoii 08:45, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

- gearbox is in texas, so it's like all of 4am for them now :P I'm spam refreshing steam in hopes of a patch, but nothing. I figure I'll have to go to sleep and give it a go during lunch or something. Allaryin 09:43, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

How can I get this patch? I just went online on ps3, for some reason i kept selecting my lev 50 mordicai and i kept getting lev 1 roland. after 5 tries I finally was able to load him up. Wonder if it automatically gets the patch when u try to start an online game? GetTheGat 09:04, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Patch 1.3.0 for PC can be downloaded here: Link but game crashes for now, guess the DLC is needed? Bllets 11:21, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Weapon editing

So it appears weapon editing DOES still work, but invalid part combinations doesn't. Adding a Cyclops sight to a SMG will cause the weapon to be deleted, but upgrading the barrel from 3 to 5 will still work. While I am in favor of this part, I don't like the fact that the unused weapon materials are considered "invalid parts". I wasn't sure if this was the right place to put this, but I didn't really want to start a new forum post just to discuss this. Feel free to move it. Furiant 16:47, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

See I like the idea of breaking up two same-manufacturer-same-type-weapons into their constituent parts then combining them into a single better weapon, scrapping the leftovers. It would have to be almost prohibitively expensive in-game, especially for legendary weapons. When you say unused weapon parts, do you mean parts for guns like the Draco? Is it not possible to apply an exclusively Draco weapon part to another S&S Combat Rifle?

Right.. going to get my gun back. I like that gun (scoped Pestifiler). IMonkoii 18:01, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

"I can't see how it could trawl through its 87 bazillion combinations ..." - easy. First, computers are fast. Second, it doesn't have to check ALL the combinations. You're on the right track with "check manufacturer/item type parts ". In Furiant's example, "adding a Cyclops sight to a SMG" that's mixing a Sniper Rifle part with an SMG. It's like playing the game "Hi/Lo" - guess a number between 1 and 10000 and I tell you if you're Hi or Lo. It only takes you about 10 guesses to get the right number. Obviously, there is a weapon database. First, it could look at the weapon type - SMG's can only have SMG parts. That immediately eliminates bazillions of weapon component combinations. Not an SMG part - delete weapon. As I understand it, modded weapons get such outrageous damage by the addition of multiple barrels. So the next step is check for only 1 barrel/mag/sight etc. More than 1 - delete weapon. Next check for correct manufacture/item/component parts, a few thousand at most, which a computer can do within a couple of seconds. It probably only takes a few procedures to eliminate 99% of the modded weapons. MeMadeIt 18:21, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

Computers are fast but even so. A combination figure of 17m is referenced below: a good database can start to slow down big time past a few million records. I've got a full 42 slot bank and about 25-30 items on my little Brick blokey. If I have to wait a few seconds for each of these 70 items I'm going to get a bit miffed. It would have to be done each time the save file is loaded as well. IMonkoii 08:52, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

By "unused materials" I meant the materials that exist in game code as well as textures, but aren't applied to any weapon. For example, the "chaos" material (Material.chaos) added the word Chaos before the prefix (so you'd have an AX10 Chaos Pestilent Defiler) as well as doubling the amount of projectiles fired. This applied OVER the current number of projectiles, so a x7 masher turned in to x14. The chameleon texture (Material.chameleon) added the word Madness before the prefix and gave a massive increase to damage as well as a huge hit to accuracy, like a Gamble affix on steroids. And while it makes sense that these were removed (they weren't applied to any weapons and they severely upset the game balance) I loved the color schemes available as well as the increased weapon variety. Furiant 18:57, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

After Thoughts

I just like how carefully gearbox has chosen their words (“Invalid weapons/items” as appose to the more commonly used terms like "modded or hacked weapons/items"). Most players I ran into never distinguished the difference between them but I’m sure gearbox has a clear and decisive meaning for both.

I’m not sure if I would agree with your definition of “an invalid weapon.” I have seen more than one weapon (and from different weapon classes) straight out of a crate that possesses parts from different weapon classes and manufactures. I remember that clearly because THAT was my eureka moment that empowered me to create very powerful mods. Later, I did discover that “Boss Weapons” were created in a similar fashion.

My guess of what gearbox’s definition of an “invalid weapon” would be is based on either, if the weapons have parts in place(s) that are not normally used (eg. a rocket helix barrel placed in the “stock slot” of a handgun) or, an even faster and better way would be to determine the total damage for that weapon and compare it with the limits set for that class (eg. a handgun with a damage level of 21,000 x14 is most likely an invalid weapon). Further, I have notice that there is a general damage cap for each weapon category that the game uses when generating a “random” weapon.

[Aye, good point. There must be parts that are common to all or a subset of manufacturers and even weapon types. Instinctively I would have thought a weapon's make-up in the save file would just have been to have a single value for each part (including the .none value) which the game/item engine then combines into the weapon. A sort of 'Weapon/Item Compiler'! Meh.. I'd have to see the code. IMonkoii 08:52, February 26, 2010 (UTC)]

Either way, with this “invalid weapon/item” limiter in place gearbox better start speaking softly the next time they announce their engine can create 17million, 750 thousand weapons. I would image that they just “invalided” over 60%-80% of their weapons possibilities. Talk about slapping yourself silly in public. There goes their main selling point, “Borderlands is capable of randomly generating over 17 million different weapons. More than all weapons combine for all games ever written for all the consoles…. “ (or something to that affect).

According to the majority of players that I’ve talk to online (my self included) we would have shelved it long ago if it wasn’t for its modding capabilities. Some likes to mod to create something that the world has never seen before while most like to collect interesting mods. What are the chances that we would be buying an addon for Borderlands if we had already uninstalled it and started playing LFD2, MW2, Bioshock 2, AvP 3 and etc… None. Don’t get me wrong, the game has its (fleeting) moments but its just not Diablo or WoW. Its longevity is mainly rooted in its moddable aspects. Two decades ago, Nokia was the best selling phone for the same reason. Mods, aka customization.

The main aspect of this game is the guns, guns, and more guns but unfortunately they are grossly incorrectly implemented. Damage levels per class do not make sense, too unrealistic and generally screwed up. The implementation of a weapon’s accuracy is incorrect. The range (what range?) for each weapon is, well… Weapon class, why even have them? A “valid” handgun (not an “invalid weapons/items”) can out range and inflect more damage than a sniper rifle?! Maybe the world's militaries should take note. Two decades ago, Nokia was the best selling phone for the same reason. Mods, aka customization. Rate of fire and clip size is way stupid. These are some of the other reasons why we mod guns. If gearbox cant do it right someone else needs to step up to the plate.

But by far the worst part of this game is its rare items. I’m not talking about the crappy quality or the Volcano or Defiler you usually get but rather the poor OCD people who got trapped into looking for them. The hours, days, weeks, months they spend looking for the proverbial needle in the hay stack and blindly trust that the rare items are statistically correctly implemented (hint: they are not). I truly wish my life is long enough to be able to blindly bark up the wrong tree like that.

Still, overall I do like the game and most of the people playing on it.

You missed the point - regardless of what defines an "invalid weapon", it's not a difficult task to detect and remove one.
"Two decades ago, Nokia was the best selling phone for the same reason. Mods, aka customization." LOL! 20 years ago?! 1990? Nokia didn't release Snake, the first cellphone game, on their first GSM digital phone until 1997! MeMadeIt 03:23, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

The thrill of the hunt, the hours of anticipation and the reward of finally finding an awesome gun is part of the experience. That's what makes searching for your gun so good. Too many people want that instant satisfaction but, without difficulties, effort, and sacrifice, the satisfaction is diminished. BONESAAAWWW 04:25, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

It might not be too hard for a human user to detect/identify a modded/invalid weapon but computers are kinda stupid this way. For all their touted competence (they're not intelligent, they're just really, really fast) this kind of thing is simply giving them a base of information and then a set of rules. The rules have to be defined by the developers (leaving it open to human error, especially if the rules are layered) and the computer will just apply the rules in a relatively dumb fashion. Even for modifications which are obvious to us, e.g. a Dove barrel on a Combat Rifle, all the computer might have to go on is that the Barrel is a part of type=repeater and the weapon is of type=CRifle => Invalid. If you transplanted that Dove barrel onto a normal-barrelled repeater maybe the computer wouldn't be able to tell that the weapon was hacked. IMonkoii 08:52, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the patch has multiple ways of knowing if a weapon is invalid. For example, I took a modestly modified sniper (not insane, doesn't make the game too easy, just combined some things I liked about two snipers I had) and it wouldn't load. I had used both the accessory slot and the action slot to give it two powerups, and when I set the action slot to blank, the sniper loaded into the game. So... modding can still be fun, its more of a challenge now, who can make the best, coolest, most awesomest VALID weapons. Modding is no longer HURR DURR I DO 1.21 JIGGAPOINTS OF DAMAGE LOL!, I actually like this.

Dear PC. players

The funny thing about the PC version of borderlands is they don't patch shit so quiet your belly aching and buy the PS3 or the SEXBOX-360 version if you dont belieave me ask a modder that has the pc version and they will tell you that i'm not lying the only thing the PC version can do that the PS3 or SEXBOX-360 can't is a modder can turn on god mod and walk around with no shield and no one can do shit about it outside of kick him/her ass out of the lobby they can't even kill him/her with death mods or bleeders or even take there ammo away unless there using a regular gun regular meaning not an alien tec gun or even corrupt his/her account basiclly what im saying is in god mod ur untouchable.

P.S. sony rules micosoft drules

                                                                                       signed that annoying little brat the_king_851

Quattuor Ascensores Sunt Venire 00:57, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

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