Shuld prolly have a wirkbench in the game. I hate how u only find a oringe wepin wunce every 20 minits. I em on playthru 1 and I em lvl 11 hntr and i dont evin hav a helfire yet. How u sipost 2 play this game wihtout a helfir? this is y if u had a wirkbench u wuld b able 2 take a fire wepin and NE sgm and make a halfire on the wirkbench. that way you wuldnt evin have 2 play the game 2 get god wepins! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk • contribs)
A contribs log which shows you typing in better English is quite a giveaway. Noted. 17:20, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
Trying to make a point here.
And that is ...??? -- 18:05, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
It seems as though he is trying to make proponents of a workbench feature look like idiots. There is another thread here in which one person is complaining that they haven't found a good gun yet in PT1 so that's why they support a workbench. As has always been my position, I am against it as well. Farming adds longevity to the game. Finding those perfect guns is the heart and soul of playing, imo. More bang for your buck without the workbench, I say.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 18:15, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
@GT: and that is a perfectly valid and reasoned argument - with which I happen to disagree, at least in part; I love farming and finding guns too, but I would like an in-game method of modifying them as well (I've gone into more detail in my original thread as to why I'd like that feature). Actually it wasn't just in playthrough 1, though - it was playthrough 1 of BL & DLC3, and playthrough 2 of BL, and I was comparing it to the quality of loot I'd found in my many other playthroughs, and wondering if there had been a change to the game mechanics that I was unaware of. But regardless of that, perhaps the OP could take a leaf out of your book and rationally explain his objections to the idea of a workbench or similar feature. Outbackyak 18:28, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
@Outbackyak. "GT" is just an abreviation for "gamertag." Most people either refer to me as CJ or just Jarrad. Anyway, I'll lay down my opposition for you.
Here's the gameflow of BL, to me: You kick ass to gain levels to get further and stronger to get better guns so you can kick ass to gain levels to get further and stronger to get better guns... ad infinitum. All the while enjoying the gameplay and storyline. Adding a workbench would abridge a large part of the game for me. Yes, it would be nice if my Jakobs 439x7 Masher had a scope and a better fire rate. So that's why farming Craw and the armory retains it's playability... I have a reason to keep going at it because I want that Masher with a 1.9 fire rate and a 3.9 zoom. Adding a workshop isn't going to end Willowtree or retardedly modded guns, and if people are that impatient, they can always find someone to make the gun for them or make it themselves on willowtree.
I'd also like to see the BL community develop more of an economy, and an in-game workbench is a step backward from that, I think.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 18:41, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
- While an economy would be wonderful and a workbench would be a step back from that, it'll be hard to develop an economy when any random person can crack open WT, make an all5 weapon (or several), and pass it/them off as legitimate. Therefore, the economy could be prosperous due to being flooded with constructs and/or mods. We, the community, can try to get a great economy going and perhaps succeed, but there'll always be the problem of how a scumbag who claims they found something they constructed is hard to tell apart from someone who actually found an all5 weapon. -- 19:17, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
- What gearbox needs to do is come up with some ridiculously difficult encryption mechanism for the game codes. If they make the process indecipherable to outsiders, problem solved. The problem is that I don't see that happening, if it even does, unitl BL2. GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 19:34, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
I liked Outbackyaks idea as i posted in his thread and i think there could be ways to make it work. If you only can change parts like scopes and mags and maybe stocks from one gun to another so that you would still have to find more powerful weapons with better elements. Or that after taking apart two or three guns you would only get one back and lose the others and the new gun wouldnt be worth hardly anything because you changed it and it would cost a tremendous amount of money to do, so you would have to decide if it was truly worth changing it or not. Also as in" Outbacks " original thread post the workbench could be an NPC sortof like Marcus where you would have to go to him and have the game do the work maybe by levels or something but only every so often like waiting for a vending machine ( every 20 minutes to an hour or something) ..Thats my opinion anywayVeggienater 23:53, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
As for the OP i think hes just trying to start trouble as i have experienced in other threadsVeggienater 23:56, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
@CJ: Thanks for the explanation of your position - a much more effective way of criticising the workbench than your original post, I think you'll agree. And I agree with you that the main point of BL is the collecting of guns, and that that is why it has such amazing replayability (if there is such a word). And that's why I suggested that the workbench should be an NPC who is only available occasionally throughout the game, and that it should be very expensive. That way it would still keep the collecting and farming going, since it's not just a matter of being able to construct the perfect gun, like in Willowtree.
You would actually have to have found 3 guns which between them have the parts you need to make one great gun; they would all have to be made by the same manufacturer; they would all have to be the same weapon type (no swappping launcher parts into SMGs etc); you would only be able to do it a limited number of times in any playthrough; and it would be very expensive to do so. I think that this would actually enhance the collecting and farming of weapons because you might pick up a gun and keep it even though it was not a good gun, but just because it had a particular part that you want for your construct. You would have to think more about the guns you find rather than just rejecting them because it's just another crappy green pistol or whatever - does it have some part that I could use, and is it made by the right manufacturer? And you've only got limited backpack space - do I keep this crappy gun for its scope, hoping to use it at the Sol the Gunsmith's shop, or do I drop it and take that gun that I can actually use right now?
I certainly don't want BL2 to lose the fundamental features that make BL1 the most addictive game I've ever played, and I doubt that Gearbox are going to mess with their original concept too much. But they'll have to bring in a few new ideas, or BL2 will be no more than a big new DLC, and it needs to be more than that. I think my idea would enhance player pleasure for many BL afficionados, though obviously not for everyone. No doubt they watch the forums and do lots of market research before they introduce new features, and it's clear that the workbench idea (in whatever form) is very divisive. They'll probably not go for it, since they want to please everybody, not just some of us. Outbackyak 12:00, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
A workbench only works if you add challenge to it like a success chance and the use of cannabalized parts for example you may be making a hyperpowered Maliwan Hellfire with 12.5 firerate and high damage but it costs loads you need to use only certain parts and have the more overpowered it is the igger your fail chance is so your left with nothing.Mysillyideas 12:17, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
The refining system needs to have a significant percentage of breaking the gun/part/both whenever you try to add/remove a part, and again for when you're adding the part to another gun. Or you could make it more drastic and demand that the player deconstruct both guns - summing up the chances of breaking every damn part - in order to get the part from one gun to another. The only costs that would matter are hours of playtime (come back 10 hours later), completing missions for the NPC (Marcus' farmories), paying with a gun which costs as much as the refinement (trading in a Redemption to change your Serpens' barrel2 to barrel5), or a combination of the above.12:33, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Outbackyak had probably the best suggestion for the workbench I've ever seen.
"I agree with you that a workbench would be nice - swap parts from guns you've found to make one killer gun (maybe it would have to only use parts from the same weapon manufacturer, and you shouldn't be able to swap parts between weapon types - no chucking a launcher barrel on a revolver). You could have another NPC like Marcus and Scooter, only for building guns - take three revolvers into his shop, tell him what you want - the scope off this, the barrel off that, the accessory off this, etc. I see him as a little wizened balding guy with fine fingers and a New Jersey accent. He'd push his glasses up onto his head, say something like "Hmm, tricky, but I can see how it could be done; call back tomorrow and I'll have it ready for you; but first you need to do me a favour ...". You go off and complete a side mission he gives you (without those guns) and then pick up the scoped Jakobs Unforgiven Masher you've always wanted, for a hefty fee - a lot more than it would cost to buy it in a vendor (custom work always costs, and it would make money worth something again in the game). I figure you'd only be able to do it occasionally - he wouldn't be open all the time (maybe every 5 missions or so). I think it would work, and it would add another aspect to the game."
It's not an in game WT. And you need to work for it.
It also works with a suggestion of adding a calender/time to the game.
"@CJ: Thanks for the explanation of your position - a much more effective way of criticising the workbench than your original post, I think you'll agree."
Wtf was wrong with my original post?GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 18:06, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
This may well be a valid suggestion for BL2.17:59, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
As far as time restrictions on a workbench, what about something like the second gun vendor in New Haven? Also, if you wanted to further restrict a workbench in terms of functionality, you could potentially require guns of the same rarity for parts. Then it would be easy to fix up a generic blue rarity Masher revolver, but a dark orange Unforgiven would take some serious investment. Lastly, you could require a character level-up to complete a rebuilt gun. That would really make your benched weapons important, and instead of fixing up every gun you find to be perfect, you would want to plan it out. Oh, and if they fixed duping, as much as it's a popular bending of the game rules, it would make the workbench more important, but still keep the farming aspect valid.
P.S. - it might sound silly, but I wouldn't mind an in-game nicknamer for guns - maybe have user selectable options for prefixes, with a little room for creativity. I would enjoy a Raging Bitch lol WhackyGordon 18:34, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
As for the time for the workbench, ive been thinking that it could work like this, the gunsmith(I like that) would only be open for say an hour and then close and wouldnt be open again for a certain amount of time( 1 TO3 hours) or something. His side mission would give you some kind of special power up SDU. Something like the ability to put healing on any gun you wanted or a second element on any gun, but only once for each SDU so that you could possibaly have a unique weapon that was differnt from any one elses, that might be sweet. And again you could only change certain parts that dont affect the base power or orignal element of a gun so that finding loot at all levels is still nescessary and fun. They might have to change the setup of the parts though. Like the barrel only affects the rate of fire, Barrel 1 has a low rate ,barrel 2 slightly higher and so on. The body would affect base damage, body 1 low damage and so on. Sights would affect accuracy. Stocks would affect recoil. Mags (self explanitory). Accessorys would add almost anything from healing to elements( x1-x4) to better accurracy to extra damage to a masher to ammo regen. ( Like they do now) but maybe that could be a changable part also and the gunsmith would award you specail ones as i descibed above and maybe you could add a second acc. but only have up to two of them to keep it from going crazy. As for the masher acc. it maybe wouldnt add alot more damge just split the damage already there up into 7 parts so a 1300 unforgiven would still be around 1300 (maybe add 100 damage) .Maybe the elemental accessory would level so that in first playthru you only got a x1 or x2 but if you could use two acc. you could make a x4 gun if you wanted. and in playthru 2 you could make up to an x8 elemental gun but no extra effects. You could take any weapon and put two acc. on it and have for example a legit vulcano masher, or healing lightning rocket launcher,or acidafied hellfire. These are some of my ideas. what do you think.Veggienater 20:38, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
I love the SDU idea about making weapons unique. Maybe spread a few out as manufacturer specific, so you do an Atlas mission, and get a unique additional part (maybe in the accessory slot) on any Atlas gun? Dude, Jacobs SDU adds a second barrel maybe? lmao Oh the possibilities... The parts system already in place is pretty similar to what you're describing, albeit differing in the details somewhat. WhackyGordon 22:43, August 1, 2010 (UTC)
Whats so hard about playing the game with the weapons you find? Ok yes, I'd like to be able to interchange scopes on sniper rifles sometimes but thats different. That has nothing to do with the damage, fire rate or accuracy of the weapon. I have had no problems finding weapons to play the game with. The Workbench sounds like a seriously stupid idea
Its not that its hard to play the way things are it just that I, and many others apperanetly would like a little costumisation in this regaurd. Im not talking 300000x 10 stock guns but havent you always wanted a x4 caustic machine pistol with ammo regen or something the game doesnt make. If not you wouldnt have to use it, just change the scope on your sniper and move on.Veggienater 01:20, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
" I, and many others apperanetly..." I count 3. This debate has been on this board for months, in several different threads, and is just as contested as it is supported.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 01:34, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Obviously you dislike the idea as is your right but my point was that with the incredible numbers using Willow Tree there is a demand for some kind of weapon customisation and wouldnt it be better to have it ingame where it could be controled and not abused as with willow tree. The game is awesome as it is and would continue to be great without the workbench but the game design and willow tree opened a Pandoras Box ( punn intended) that could possibaly improve the game if done right. And why not put it in a DLC to see if it would work before putting it in BL2 . Veggienater 02:36, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
No, I don't like the idea, for the reasons I've already explained above. And if you think have a regulated in-game weapons customization option is going to curtail willowtree use, then that's just silly.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 02:50, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Well, if they threw some save-file encryption in there to make it harder to use WillowTree at the same time, I imagine a good number of people wouldn't be bothered, given with a little effort they could get the same result, but with the satisfaction of legitimacy. And it would, unlike WillowTree, let you put your own personal touch on a gun and not be cheating. Even only being able to change some parts would be nice. Honestly, scopes come off IRL... WhackyGordon 03:13, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
As it stands now the onlt thing that would stop willow tree would be a total patch the eliminates modding altogether, but if the game had a workbench/gunsmith it could convince alot of modders to do it in game because they would have the choice and it would be easier. Im not talking complete customisation leave the base damage, element and leveling alone because those work well but for those who want to change things up A LITTLE, they could have the option and if you dont then that would be your choice and most people could be happy.Veggienater 03:30, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
" they could have the option and if you dont then that would be your choice and most people could be happy."
Bad argument. Most people never wanted to start using steroids in baseball but they had to in order to keep up with the level of game other people were bringing. Besdies, I could just as easily say "If you want to mod your guns that bad just use willowtree or friend up that someone that can do it for you." *shrugs*GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 03:37, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
"Most people never wanted to start using steroids in base ball but they had to in order to keep up". Your saying that they dont have a choice but to use an outside influence (steroids) in order to play the game of baseball but the workbench would offer that choice with out the outside infuence( willow tree).Veggienater 04:07, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, it's really more like super-modern shoes than steroids. Just a minor advantage. Scorpio guns are like steroids, but I don't think anybody seriously want those legitimized.. That's like banning necks. WhackyGordon 04:23, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
@CJ-- if they do a workbench or not im still going to love boarderlands and i hope you will to and that the last thing i have to stay on this subject right now!!Veggienater 11:47, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
Many IRL guns have removable scopes and accessories like sticking a grenade launcher on an M16. Maybe the ability to find scopes and accessories as seperate parts and swap them with your gun could work well in BL2. Remember this could allow you to turn guns into mashers, or add 4x zoom to your sniper. Maybe as a limititation accesories could be brand locked so only maliwan accesories could be added to a maliwan gun.Mysillyideas 13:45, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
@Veggienater-- Ok!!!!!! I guess will play boarderlands either way but I hope it not just enough rope to hang the game and that the last thing I have to stay to!!!!!!!!GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 18:29, August 2, 2010 (UTC)
I think I've found a way that this could be done that I'd feel more comfortable with. Instead of being able to alter assembled guns, I think it would be more in-keeping with the spirit of the game if it was more of a system where you needed to find parts and assemble from scratch. Like if gun parts appeared as part of random drops and were able to be found in chests. They could be stored in your inventory in a separate compartment, and you could hold an infinite amount of them. Brands would only fit with other matching brand parts, and material quality would have to be consistent throughout the construct as well. This way, you'd still have to farm, but you could recreate a gun that you have, then retool it how you'd want to if you had all the parts.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 03:56, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
- hey, not bad - maybe have claptraps assemble for a fee or something? Oh and adding a special additional part, like an accessory on one of the gun-types that doesn't use them - they could add that in and do that there - that'd be easy. Only what, repeaters and combat rifles or something have accessories? I really want a Jakobs unique second barrel attachment to stick on an unforgiven. Even with a -40% damage on it it would still look freakin awesome. Oh the dreams we can dream... WhackyGordon 04:19, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, it's kind of like a spinoff on the scavenger missions, which I've always enjoyed. I also think all the parts should match in level as well. Maybe you could find schematics for certain guns too, which would give you a manifest of the parts you'd need. Like let's say that certain legendary combinations of parts are undoable by themselves. Like you could have all the parts for a Hellfire but could only assemble it if you had a Hellfire schematic. But, you'd be able to use whatever eligible parts you had to make it. So let's say you have the hellfire accessory and all the matching Maliwan Cobalt SMG parts. You wouldn't be able to construct it unless you had the plan, but if you did you could install whatever quality of parts you wanted.
My main concern is balancing the possibilities of customization with keeping good guns rare, so it's stillexciting to find or build one. I think something like this would ensure that people still have to put the work in to get the good stuff.GT: ConceitedJarrad XBOX360 04:34, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
I think the desire for customization is what drives WillowTree. If beating some huge mission for Jakobs, like finishing Jakobs Cove or something - let me get just one special unique accessory to permanently attach to one gun, it would let me customize something. I think that's what people want, and beyond that it's just a matter of balancing numbers so it doesn't break the gameplay. You still have to find the good stuff. Just once you do you can pimp it out and love it forever. Some way to level up guns would be sweet too. I have a level 25 Pestilent Defiler that I love, but I outgrew it. Maybe a merchant at the end of the game could do it or something. Bring your old stuff back into play. I figure most people have a couple low level guns benched that they loved while they were leveling. That'd be sweet, provided you had enough inventory to store them and use other stuff until you get to the point where you can level them. WhackyGordon 05:00, August 3, 2010 (UTC)
@cj-- I like your idea too, in conjuntion with a gunsmith/ workbench where you have find one of each legendary accessory for the hellfire or what ever legendary gun instead of the actual gun and then add it to a great gun of that type and manufacturer. They could be awared for killing bosses or being sent to scavenge them or some other bounty bourd mission reward. they would also be awarded randomly like the guns are. You find and take it to the the gunsmith to make that weapon. It would then be made to your current level. Also you could change supperfical parts like the scope or mag., that doesnt effect the power of the gun, for the customisation aspect. I would still like the ability to add a second accessory though. If they limit the power of the second accessory so it only add say an extra x1 or x2 Element or limited extra power (10-20) or limited health regen similar to the troll pistol. or limited accuracy(5% OR so) or you get the idea, so you couldnt over power a gun and you would still have to find better guns and other legendary accessorys and after a time you would have to take the legendy accessory off and put it on a different gun spending more money every time. And with some limited access to the gunsmith you would have to plan out when you went to see him. You would have to buy the extra accessory after building the legendary from the gunsmith and you would have to buy them for the level you are at and could not reuse old ones and would be at the whim of avalability or they could be rewards for doing the gun smiths missions so that they are random and you had a limited amount of them. IT would cost a % of your total money like the new-u so that it would be more difficult to go all the time. but maybe only 2-3% instead of 7%. But even if they didnt go with the the second accesory idea, the others might work with both ideas.Veggienater 01:47, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
As for the legendary accessory you would first have to in the case of a hellfire find the acc then find a maliwan fire elemental smg to replace the acc. to make your hellfire. the gun would provide the base damage and fire rate and accuracy and the accessory would control final elemental multiplier. Accuracy could be slightly adjusted by changing the scope and if you wanted a bigger mag add that too, all at a considerable cost, leaving you with what you want but alot less money. Again with limited time access to the gunsmith you would make the guns you could afford and need at the time and have to wait until next time when you had more money or if you had plenty of money wait until you found the next legendary accessory and proper gun to put it on. As for say a masher, the accessory would take the base damage of the revolver and split it up into 7 parts and add a small % of damage ( 1- 2-3%) or % crit. bonus like the Unforgiven, to get the final result. This would work the same for the Skullmasher and so on. Im sure im missing something but i hope you can see where im going with this.Veggienater 03:15, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
You should go spend some time reading what the parts do in gearcalc. That's kinda how it works already. All we really want is the capacity to customize the combination of parts, and maybe an extra accessory slot. Actually there is another accessory slot - the action slot - but it's only used on pistols and I think combat rifles. It would be sweet if they released a bunch of new "action" gun parts, and enabled them on other types of guns. That would be awesome, and both together would be a lot like the socketed items in Diablo. Personally I like the concept of the Nemesis - multiple elements. It would add a whole new dimension to the game if you could combine different elements via action parts and a workbench. And then you'd have the potential to double up on one element, and maybe have something like the Firehawk come out? It might seem to make the game easier, but firehawks aren't that hard to find. I don't think it would make a huge difference. WhackyGordon 23:48, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
@ whacky---I do know that and that is my point. You could enact these ideas with out major overhaul of the parts system and still have the customisation as I, you , CJ or others described. my idea is to simply change how legendary guns are acquired, incorporating customisation, in my above idea that might work as CJ described. All im saying is you can make your legendarys yourself by using other guns you find if you find the legendary accessory to change the gun( farming or missions) same as it is and add that second accessory slot without breaking the game and still have the ability to find or make. Again just an idea i threw out there. Veggienater 03:14, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
I like the idea of a regulated adjustment system, but my real point is what about a repaint system. what I mean is you go to like a vendor or something and select color 1 2 maybe 3. For example I've always wanted to paint my hellfire green cause its my faviriot color and maybe change the flavour text to like burn bitch burn or something, I think that would be a good way to custumize guns albeit at the cost of company paint schemes