Why is someone deleting the entire Combat Rifle page and changing it to the "Category: combat rifles" page? Pdboddy 15:48, December 4, 2009 (UTC)
Bullet velocity Edit
think need additional info on bullet velocity for rifle types; different rifle types has different b.v. (varies up to 2.5-3 times dif.) example: stomper - lowest, cobra - usualy high/highest, genocide modification incr. b.v. as well etc; its important for tactics/game strategy and has heavy influence on mid to high range combat and/or moving targets (sometimes its more important to have high b.v. instead of higher damage but low b.v. --headshots!!)
Unusual combat rifle Edit
A friend of mine somehow managed to find a combat rifle that, of all things, has a damage of 200x4. I've looked all over the wiki, and I've seen or heard of any combat rifle that shoots multiple bullets. I'll look up its name next time I see it. EDIT: This is on the xbox 360 version, and I'm positive it's not hacked. 188.8.131.52 18:57, January 3, 2010 (UTC)pup42512n
Dude, it's called the Vladof Chopper dropped by Motorhead in DLC 3. It has awful accuracy but makes up for it with high fire rate, x4, and unloads the whole over 500 round clip in oner trigger pull. It's a fun novelty weapon.
S&S Draco Edit
I just reverted an edit that had removed the S&S Draco from the page, but I can see why there might be reasoning behind the removal. Perhaps an additional note about it could be added stating that it can't normally be obtained in-game, but that the accessory for the weapon does still spawn in-game. Because the accessory does spawn but doesn't work properly, it could be fixed in a future patch.Talk:S&S_Draco StarPilot 18:51, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
Intense Rifle Edit
I added the Intense Rifle to the "Burst-Fire" list, but I have no camera for details.
Lvl Req: 7 Damage: 23 Accuracy: 88.7 Fire Rate: 10.0
+50% Critical Hit damage +23% Recoil Reduction -4% Accuracy 1.4x Weapon Zoom
Naming Convention Edit
During the process of creating the table for Unique, I noticed that we're not very consistent with how we name combat rifles.
- The Strategies are "Assault Rifle" and "Machine Gun"
- The Varieties are "Burst Fire" and "Fully Automatic"
- Combat Riles listed as Fully Automatic on this page, (such as The Meat Grinder), refer to "Support Machine Gun" in their infobox. Support Machine Gun simply redirects to Combat Rifle.
- Combat Riles listed as Burst Fire on this page, (such as The Sentinel), refer to "Combat Rifle" in their infobox.
I recommend we correct this. I suggest we pick one naming convention, then change the infoboxes accordingly. My suggestions:
- We change all combat rifle infoboxes to "Combat Rifle".
- We change all combat rifle infoboxes to "Burst Fire Combat Rifle" and "Automatic Combat Rifle"
- We change all combat rifle infoboxes to "Assault Rifle" and "Machine Gun"
- We change "Strategies" to ""Burst Fire Combat Rifle" and "Automatic Combat Rifle"
- We change "Varieties" to "Assault Rifle" and "Machine Gun"
If we choose "Burst Fire" and "Fully Automatic":
- "Burst Fire Combat Rifle" and "Automatic Combat Rifle" would, of course, redlink in the infobox. We'd need to set redirects to Combat_Rifle#Burst-fire_Combat_Rifles and Combat_Rifle#Fully_Automatic_Combat_Rifles.
If we choose Assault Rifle and Machine Gun:
- Machine Gun is a disambiguation page, which points to the Machine Gun (title) and Combat_Rifle#Fully_Automatic_Machine_Guns. We'd need to change the redirect to "Combat_Rifle#Machine_Gun".
- "Assualt Rifle" doesn't currently exist, so we'd need to set up a redirect page to "Combat_Rifle#Assault_Rifle".
Of course, the anchor #Fully_Automatic_Machine_Guns doesn't actually exist on the combat rifle page, so that link needs to be fixed either way.Thoughts?
- From the game's point of view, there was never anything called "Assault Rifle", so I think we shouldn't use it.
- Also, I'm against the term "Fully Automatic Machine Gun", since the game was nice enough to call them "Support Machine Gun"
- From a mechanics point of view, there are two weapon grades things "Combat Rifle" and "Support Machine Gun"
- From a weapon Title point of view, there are two titles: "Rifle" and "Machine Gun (title)".
- I'd just name the entire category "Rifles", the burst ones "Combat Rifles" and the auto ones "Support Machine Gun"
- Also, please don't be too hasty about making changes, it would impact a lot of the wiki, including some of the older more obscure templates...
- happypal (talk • contribs • inventory) 06:32, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- How am I being hasty? I'm making a suggestion on a talk page, and asking for additional opinions about my suggestion. That's kinda the exact opposite of "hasty".
- When/Where does the game call them "support machine gun"? I haven't used many combat rifles in my playthroughs, and being on the PS3 means I can't look at the mechanics of the game.
- I'd like you to clarify on "I'd just name the entire category "Rifles"". Do you mean [[Category:Combat_Rifles]]? -- 07:24, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- The part names in the weapons generator use the term support machinegun. I think happy concerned himself more with how people are to refer to each type of rifle, as well as the collective noun - because if the category was to change, it may affect other pages and upper/lower categories across the wiki. 09:34, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
You aren't being hasty, I was just saying you should be prepared before starting. For example, we're still cleaning little bits up after fryguy's zealous weapon move of last month... He caught us by surprise and we weren't able to assist.
by "I'd just name the entire category "Rifles"", I mean I'd do a category tree (as well as page organization) like this:
- [[Category:Combat Rifles]]
- [[Category:Machine Gun]]
- Okay. I'm not proposing a change to categories, I'm proposing a change to pages. Combat Rifles/Assault Rifles/Machine Guns/Support Machine Guns, whatever we call them, are governed by the Weapon Proficiency "Combat Rifle". The Soldier Class Mods grant a bonus to "Combat Rifles". They should all fall under [[Category:Combat Rifles]]. Changing that is going to do more harm than good.
- All I'm suggesting is that we not have 5 names for 2 things. There are two types of "Combat Rifle"; those that shoot X bullets per pull of the trigger (burst fire) and those that continue to fire with a pull of the trigger (automatic). We should pick 2 names for those 2 types of Combat Rifle and apply them universally; Strategies, Varieties and infoboxes.
- If there is in game reason to call (automatic) Combat Rifles "Support Machine Guns" then I'm all for that. The infoboxes on pages such as Havoc, The Meat Grinder and Ogre are fine, and we can change Combat_Rifle#Machine_Gun_Strategy and Combat_Rifle#Fully_Automatic_Combat_Rifles to [[Combat_Rifle#Support_Machine_Gun_Strategy]] and [[Combat_Rifle#Support_Machine_Guns]]. Support Machine Gun already redirects to Combat Rifle. We're 50% fixed!
- The question remains, what do we call Combat Rifles that have burst fire? I see nothing wrong with "Assault Rifle". We already have pages and categories that were never called that "from the game's point of view". Why stop now? -- 10:59, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- "I'm not proposing a change to categories": When you are proposing to change the name of a weapon, you are changing everything: Pages, categories, navigational templates, page contents etc...
"Why stop now" - Because we were doing it wrong to begin with.
- I'm also all for not having 5 different names, but that doesn't mean we should invent names for weapons. The fact is there are two weapon types: "Combat Rifles" and "Machine Guns", and they are both in a category of weapons called "Combat Rifle". What's wrong with sticking with that? happypal (talk • contribs • inventory) 12:51, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- Unique and Legendary were were created to put a name on something that didn't have one (Orange didn't really fit the bill) (Unique was something every one understood, but didn't really have a word to describe it).
- What bothers me (hence my behaviour) is that the term "assault" is neither cannon, yet doesn't really describe the weapon either. Why wouldn't we have an "Assault Machine Gun"?
- You are correct that using the category "Rifle" is retarded, and would further create conflict with snipers.
- I (IMO) never liked either of "Burst Fire Combat Rifle" or "Fully Automatic Combat Rifle" or "Fully Automatic Machine Gun" because it is way too long.
- I think the term "Machine Gun" is cannon, short, understood by everyone and perfect.
- For the burst weapon, I think we can converge on either "Burst Rifle" or "Burst Combat Rifle".
- What do you think of this scheme? Either way, once decided, we'll have to enforce its use wiki-wide.
- Anyways, thanks for bringing this up, it has been left undone for too long. happypal (talk • contribs • inventory) 14:30, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
I think I would rather Burst Rifle or Burst Machine Gun. I'd hate to see new users get confused between "Combat Rifle" as a group and "Burst Combat Rifle" as a sub-group since "Combat Rifle" is actual language used in the game pertaining to Proficiencies and Class Mods, (i.e. "does using a Rifleman class mod improve my Ogre since it's not a Burst Combat Rifle?).
- Combat Rifle (As a namespace and category)
- Burst Machine Gun/Rifle (as a collection of Combat Rifles)
- Support Machine Gun (as a collection of Combat Rifles)
Those both fit in the infobox, they can both redirect to their respective Combat_Rifle#Varieties
I would like to see this enforced wiki wide. Shotguns come in two flavors, Sniper Rifles in three, and simply put if we're going to call something by a name we need to make sure we call it that across the board. If we're not going to call it that, then it needs to be purged. -- 15:07, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
- I'll veto the term "Burst Machine Gun" as "Machine Gun" is really specific to the fully automatic variant. I guess that would mean we agree on "Burst Rifle".
- For "Machine Gun" vs "Support Machine Gun", I prefer "Machine Gun" because:
- it is Shorter
- "Support" is an obscure mechanics specific term that will confuse our users.
- If we can agree on this, then I think you can start your edits. I'd personally wait 24h if anybody else wants to add something to the conversation (like Dr. F.), or you can be bold. I can take care of the navigational template edits. I can also hunt down and cleanse all the spread out renegade references with tool assistance (ie don't tire yourself). happypal (talk • contribs • inventory) 16:06, May 17, 2011 (UTC)
You veto? When did you get veto powers? You can disagree with me until the end of time, but you don't get to veto unless you're a sysop or admin.
I plan on leaving Support Machine Gun exactly as it is. Since there is in-game reason to call it that, it fits just fine in the info box, it hasn't caused any confusion up to this point, and it means 50% less work needs to be done. -- 05:29, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
- Abuse of words for "I strongly disagree with". I'm fine with "support". You never needed my approval, I was giving you my points of views. You are free to take them into 'consideration, and after that, do as you feel is best. I'll get back to editing my mechanics and see where I can assist once you get started, regardless of your choice. happypal (talk • contribs • inventory) 06:24, May 18, 2011 (UTC)
Rewriting the page Edit
Alright, I'm going to tackle as much of this page as I can.
I'm going to start by changing "Assault Rifle" to "Burst Rifle". This means renaming [[Combat_Rifle#Assault_Rifle_Strategy]] to [[Combat_Rifle#Burst_Rifle_Strategy]] and [[Combat_Rifle#Burst-fire_Combat_Rifles]] to Combat_Rifle#Burst_Rifles]].
I will also need to rewrite some of the Strategy sections to change references from "Assault Rifle" to "Burst Rifle".
All of the guns that fall into this sub-group currently link to Combat Rifle in their infoboxes. I will set up a redirect page called "Burst Rifle" that points to
[[Combat Rifle#Burst_Rilfes]] <edit>[[Combat Rifle]]</edit> because I would like to learn how to actually set up a redirect page.
Happypal has offered to change the nav templates, and I'm assuming that also includes infoboxes. I'll leave those to him unless he otherwise states that he is unable to do so in short order.
- Also, I don't speak Spanish. Who's up for editing es:Rifle de combate? -- 23:01, May 29, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, the "Assault Rifle -> Burst Rifle" edit is done on this page, and the Burst Rifle redirect page is set up. Since the edits went pretty quick, I'll go ahead and tackle the info boxes as well. I'm still weighing my options over "Machine Gun" versus "Support Machine Gun", and will tackle that either later tonight or tomorrow. -- 23:13, May 29, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, "Machine Gun" to "Support Machine Gun" is all done. Since all the infoboxes and nav templates already had "Support" in them, it was just a matter of touching up this page.
All set? EditOkay, as far as I can tell I'm all done here. The page has been rewritten to "Burst Rifles" and "Support Machine Guns", all the infoboxes for each individual weapon page lists their type according to the master list on this page, the Burst Rifle redirect page has been made for the infoboxes, the Category:Burst Rifles page has been set up and it looks like Happypal has done his adjustments to the nav boxes. Anything I missed? -- 22:34, May 30, 2011 (UTC)
Maybe, the game call all these weapons "Assault Rifles" not Combat Rifles. Is that important? PyroMerc 14:36, September 14, 2011 (UTC)
Naming convention : The ReturnEdit
Same S... , Different Day.
As said earlier, I'm against the renaming of Combat Rifle "Burst-fire rifle" as this word is, to me, a bad-sounding word that I wouldn't ever say even outside of Borderlands. Wait, too late. Anyway, my proposition is the follwing :
- For Rifles called combat_rifle by the game I suggest Combat Rifle
- For Rifles called support_machinegun I suggest either Machine Gun (My preference), Support Machine Gun or Auto Combat Rifle
- For Rifles in general, I suggest Assault Rifle (My pref.) or Rifle
Seud 19:54, February 17, 2012 (UTC)
Is this all because of different part names versus different game names versus different actual types? I might be way off, so feel free to correct me. I would think you can use any names that make sense but to always include combat rifle in the name can be done.
support machine gun (combat rifle)
combat rifle (burst fire)
combat rifle (automatic)
combat rifle (machine gun)
It might be a bit cumbersome but no one can argue that they are not what they are.
Every page that have "Burst fire rifle" in it, including some templates. And there are many. I hate this word as said ~12 lines above, I believe that Combat Rifles are the name for 3R rifles and Assault Rifle or simply Rifle the name for the category (Including MGs and 3R-BRs). Or maybe even Battle Rifle for the category ! The Engine calls them Combat Rifle, Support Machine Gun and Assault Rifles, they are the game files names. 184.108.40.206 19:40, February 19, 2012 (UTC) (PS : This is actually me. H4T3 auto-logout. Seud 18:41, February 22, 2012 (UTC))
The general problem: a number of families of weapons comprise multiple subfamilies, where one subfamily has the same name as the master family. Sniper rifles comprise both sniper rifles and "semi-auto" sniper rifles; combat rifles comprise both combat rifles and full-automatic support machine guns; shotguns comprise both combat shotguns and assault shotguns; repeaters comprise both repeater pistols and machine pistols (all of which fall under the greater heading of pistols, along with revolvers, just to further the confusion).
The problem worsens when the game does not assign its own nomenclature to a discrete subfamily, or else is inconsistent in its naming. Often we take our name from the internal codename. Sometimes we try to create a name that doesn't exist anywhere in the game. Is "Burst Rifle" really any worse than, say, "Combat Shotgun," a name that only appears in game internals? I argue that yes, it is worse, because once we invent our own term of art, we have a harder time communicating with those who haven't adopted our own private terminology, such as gbx forums, blmodding, etc.
For some reason, there doesn't seem to be any confusion on the repeater page usages. There are repeater pistols, and machine pistols which are a subfamily of all repeaters, and it seems obvious enough when you're talking about one or the other.
Our Sniper Rifles page has invented the term "Pump-Action Sniper Rifle" to denote those sniper rifles that are not semi-auto sniper rifles. This term appears nowhere in the game, which calls them simply Sniper Rifles (the same term that appears in-game for the semi-automatic variety, as well). Gbx forums calls these bolt-action, apparently preferring the real-world "not-a-semiauto" term over what the action animation actually shows; the parts page occasionally calls these manual-action sniper rifles. Blmodding calls these "regular" or "traditional" sniper rifles, but does not capitalize the adjective into a private term of art. Generally, I favor blmodding's approach: call non-semi-auto sniper rifles simply Sniper Rifles, and apply a discriminating adjective if absolutely necessary to distinguish them from the other subfamily. Hence "manual-action Sniper Rifle," if you must, or (maybe better) "Sniper Rifle (traditional)," but not "Manual-Action Sniper Rifle."
But this is the Combat Rifle talk page, not that for shotguns or sniper rifles or skags.
"Burst-fire combat rifles" have no unique name in-game, other than that suggested by the default title of "Rifle" (similar to the default Combat Shotgun title of "Shotgun.") The family encompassing both these and their full-automatic cousins is always called Combat Rifles, except in a categorized inventory listing, where the family is called Assault Rifles. (Categorized inventory listings have a number of other idiosyncracies, including a hyphenated spelling of Sub-Machine Gun.) Nowhere else, either internally or in-game, does the term "Assault Rifle" appear. Even Roland's so-called Assault skill names the family as Combat Rifles, and Moxxi in DLC2 refers to a "Combat Rifle Challenge." In-game, support machine guns have a default title of "Machine Gun."
The invented term "Burst Rifle" is possibly the worst thing we could have. It doesn't exist in game, either internally or presented to the player; doesn't exist on any other BL site; and doesn't even correspond to any real-world English usage. It must die.
I would favor returning to Combat Rifle for both the family and the specific subfamily. Describe it as a regular or burst-fire (note lowercase) Combat Rifle only in cases where there is some ambiguity. The "Machine Gun" and "Support Machine Gun" pages redirect to Combat Rifle#Machine Gun. The Combat Rifle page will describe Machine Guns as a subvariety with different operational characteristics from a common Combat Rifle.
Dämmerung 23:34, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
Following up on the points made in "Son of Bride of Naming Convention" rants above, I have re-rewritten (draft) the page to meet the following goals:
1. No inventing new names for weapons. "Burst Rifle" is both an abomination and completely unnecessary. It is now gone.
2. No class-specific observations, especially jejune ones like "Brick can use explosive weapons, so he can use explosive combat rifles, too." The class info sections range from banal to inaccurate. I've deleted it entirely.
3. No overselling. We're not pitching used cars or breakfast cereal here, we're describing a class of weapons in a game. Nobody needs to be convinced of anything. The tone should be that of an encyclopedia entry, not Dan Ackroyd shilling the Bass-O-Matic 5000.
4. No redundancy beyond whatever is necessary in a summary, an overview. Less is more. If folks want to learn lots more about Draco, it's only a click away.
I'm sure that more along these lines is possible, but it's a start. Feedback welcome. Dämmerung 05:25, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm against the entire use of the word "Burst" anywhere at all (ditto for "automatic"), except when first describing the weapon. It is wrong, Period.
- I really don't see why we can't just have "Combat Rifle (Weapon Class)", composed of "Combat Rifle" and "Support Machine Gun". Ambiguous? kind of, but it has the advantage of being correct and encyclopedic.
- Side note, I welcome the effort. happypal (talk • contribs) 13:58, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
- If I can make "The Combat Rifle family comprises Combat Rifles proper and Machine Guns" work, then I will. Happy to see you hack on the draft as well. Iteration is good. Dämmerung 14:39, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
As a proof of concept, I have given the SMG overview page the same treatment (draft). Elements 2 through 4 above still apply to SMGs. The page is much shorter without endless rhapsoding on how Brick can use an explosive SMG, Mordy can use a corrosive SMG, etc. Dämmerung 03:45, May 29, 2012 (UTC)
I've pushed my changes. Will clean up the infoboxes around the wiki later. Dämmerung 00:02, May 30, 2012 (UTC)
Sniper rifle credit using a combat rifle Edit
Sniper rifle credit using a combat rifle. Is this documented somewhere? I tried searching but came up empty. In Borderlands 1, if I kill a far enemy using a scoped combat rifle, I get credit for a sniper rifle kill under the challenge log counts. I have no idea how far away you must be to get the sniper credit. I was playing Roland who never used a sniper rifle, just shotguns and combat rifles. I noticed that I did have credit for sniper kills on the challenge log tab. Then I verified, by doing some long distance kills and seeing that the kill count does increase. On the weapon proficiency tab, there is no increase for sniper rifles. So, it is only affecting the number of kills counters.